tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9112925820320944611.post4859720604123611210..comments2024-01-27T04:41:17.522-07:00Comments on Hot Chicks Dig Smart Men: Self-Determination versus Public HealthJaniecehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06223994862015217811noreply@blogger.comBlogger29125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9112925820320944611.post-51502479230773832182010-06-17T09:52:24.966-06:002010-06-17T09:52:24.966-06:00Yeah, Juan.
I'm the Court Jester 'round he...Yeah, Juan.<br /><i>I'm</i> the Court Jester 'round here.<br />Step away from my gig!The Mechanicky Galhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00301818656158916179noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9112925820320944611.post-31782638197862649012010-06-17T07:15:15.208-06:002010-06-17T07:15:15.208-06:00Juan, that "aw, shucks, I'm just a dumb M...Juan, that "aw, shucks, I'm just a dumb Mexican/Indian" persona may work in lowering <em>others</em> expectations of you, but I know better. If you choose to comment <em>here,</em> you must be able to defend your position logically. <br /><br />Stirring things with a stick (and then walking away) isn't permitted.Janiecehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14190655869710465713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9112925820320944611.post-6493053066830400392010-06-16T22:23:36.932-06:002010-06-16T22:23:36.932-06:00I really need to take a writing course. you guys a...I really need to take a writing course. you guys are overthinking my simplicity. :)<br /><br />Really, I'm just barely smarter than a rock.Juan Federicohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09040532701560944935noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9112925820320944611.post-58706018561058420312010-06-16T14:49:25.261-06:002010-06-16T14:49:25.261-06:00The error in your assumption is that those who get...<i>The error in your assumption is that those who get immunized are less likely to get Darwinized than those do not. </i><br /><br />Indeed, Juan, Janiece's comment bears reading twice: if you're as aware of history as you say you are, you're aware that one of the worst possible epidemiological threats is the asymptomatic carrier who infects others without suffering many (if any) of the worst effects of her illness (c.f. <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typhoid_Mary" rel="nofollow">Typhoid Mary</a>, the most notorious example).<br /><br />Let's reflect on Darwin a little more deeply for a moment: an infectious agent that kills its host before its descendants can invade another ecological niche (i.e. another host) is, from a Darwinian POV, fairly <i>un</i>successful. E.g. as nightmarish as ebola is, it's actually not <i>that</i> effective a predator, since the virus can burn through a population of hosts faster than hosts outside the population can be exposed. HIV, on the other hand, is an <i>extremely</i> effective virus for a variety of reasons <i>including the perverse fact that it's not always fatal</i>. An HIV carrier can walk around as a viral repository, infecting as many others as she or he can spread bodily fluids to, for <i>decades</i>.<br /><br />The point being, we should be so lucky as for an anti-vaxxer to be killed quickly by his or her beliefs. A plausible and horrifying scenario, however, is that an anti-vaxxer refuses vaccination, contracts a non-fatal case of some preventable-but-awful disease, and spends days, weeks, months, years or even decades as a Patient Zero everywhere he goes, killing or harming others who haven't been or can't be vaccinated, or whose vaccinations haven't taken (an occasional event, as John says).<br /><br />Mandatory vaccinations decreases the risks for everyone, not just the person receiving the vaccine.Erichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18275812152895151542noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9112925820320944611.post-80627681786953142010-06-16T13:02:05.649-06:002010-06-16T13:02:05.649-06:00Juan, it's a good thing I care about you for o...Juan, it's a good thing I care about you for other reasons. Because such willful ignorance would be fighting words for almost <em>anyone</em> else. <br /><br />The error in your assumption is that those who get immunized are less likely to get Darwinized than those do not. Since the issue here is herd immunity versus individual choice, the logical fallacy in your position should be obvious. <br /><br />When it comes to evolution, humanity ISN'T different - that's the point. As reasoning, intelligent beings, we can <em>decrease</em> the risk associated with communicable disease to our species. Such an ability is in fact one of our competitive advantages, and to suggest we just throw it away for reasons you seem unable to articulate is not an acceptable outcome.Janiecehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14190655869710465713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9112925820320944611.post-63339147068819908242010-06-16T12:41:29.001-06:002010-06-16T12:41:29.001-06:00"Never tell me the odds!" - Han Solo Giv..."Never tell me the odds!" - Han Solo Giving me 1 in 5 to 1 in 10 that I can still get some serious funk after I've been immunized valdates my stance. That comment implies risks. Risks, I understand. You know that<br />entire species have been wiped out by carelessness, by design or by chance. Why should humanity be different? I know people and, my knowledge of history isn't horribly shabby. It would take much, remember the Avian Flu thing awhile back? Sheesh what a show! We were just a step or two from getting the planet locked down. Crap. I'm rambling. Basically, let those who want shots take them and, those that don't not. It's evolution at work my friends. "Bring out your dead! Bring out your dead!" - Monty PythonJuan Federicohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09040532701560944935noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9112925820320944611.post-72995010843709618982010-06-13T12:37:13.042-06:002010-06-13T12:37:13.042-06:00Juan, involuntarily quarantining someone for willf...Juan, involuntarily quarantining someone for willfully posing a public health risk is not the moral equivalent of an internment camp. <br /><br />You know better.Janiecehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14190655869710465713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9112925820320944611.post-59533535148787544542010-06-13T06:40:39.261-06:002010-06-13T06:40:39.261-06:00Juan, vaccination is not an on or off thing. Most ...Juan, vaccination is not an on or off thing. Most vaccinations have a "take" rate of 80 - 90%. That menas that the 10 - 20% of people for whom the vaccine is ineffective rely on the other 80 - 90% being immune and not getting the disease. Add to that people who have diseases that prevent them from getting vaccinated. Then think about booster schedules. They make those so that <i>most</i> people are still covered, but not all are. Then the 10 - 20% non-covered but vacinated figure starts creeping up to 15 - 25%.<br /><br />You've been vaccinated, but do you <i>know</i> if you're covered? How lucky do you feel today? Do you want me to roll you around in some pertussis germs and do the experiment to find out? I thought not.<br /><br />Every idiot who does not get vaccinated is lowering the immunity of the herd. And those who are vaccinated but not covered (for whatever reason) are then put at risk.John the Scientisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03467337009577733553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9112925820320944611.post-26775039276217816062010-06-13T03:12:01.501-06:002010-06-13T03:12:01.501-06:00I'm having a stupid attack. It's 4Am and I...I'm having a stupid attack. It's 4Am and I'm hard at work on some servers God Knows Where. But What's with the no public exposure thing? I mean we get vaccinated right? My family and I certainly are. No public exposure...hmm...Funny Hats, Armbands and maybe some Concentration Camps might be in order next, hey? Oh and let's base the isolation of these people on religion too. Since we all know that religious people are the craziest humans of them all, hey? Freedom of Religion, Freedom of Speech, let's just dump it. Who needs it anyway?<br />Well back to my real problem of the day.Juan Federicohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09040532701560944935noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9112925820320944611.post-35641335642518711852010-06-12T21:26:42.357-06:002010-06-12T21:26:42.357-06:00nzforme, those are both excellent questions, and d...nzforme, those are both excellent questions, and deserve thoughtful answers.<br /><br />1. I do not believe religious exemptions should be permitted. The end result of an infected community is the same regardless of the reasons for failure to vaccinate. While I recognize my own bias on this score as a non-theist, the yardstick provided by Eric still applies - their religious rights end where my right not to be exposed to deadly pathogens due to <em>their</em> belief begins. If a religious community wants to indulge in strict isolationism in order to support their beliefs without endangering others, then I have no issue. But if a member of that community wants access to the larger society, then they should be forced to submit to the vaccination schedule.<br /><br />2. Yes. Not only should the government provide the support you describe (as they do today, through the vaccine court), the government should also pick up the tab for the vaccines themselves if getting them is a mandatory public health measure.Janiecehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14190655869710465713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9112925820320944611.post-18216698506938062282010-06-12T20:40:22.614-06:002010-06-12T20:40:22.614-06:00I can't approach this from any perspective oth...I can't approach this from any perspective other than a legal one. From which I raise two hypothetical questions:<br /><br />1. Would your position be different if someone chose not to vaccinate out of religious reasons rather than stupidity?<br /><br />and<br /><br />2. If vaccinations are mandatory as a public health measure, should the public pick up the tab for those unlucky few who do suffer unfortunate reactions to the vaccines?nzformehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13982194544873836336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9112925820320944611.post-63443402520776877612010-06-11T13:06:26.948-06:002010-06-11T13:06:26.948-06:00Michelle's solution would not be hard to imple...<i>Michelle's solution would not be hard to implement. An "anti-vax fucking moron" tattoo on the forehead would do nicely.</i><br /><br />Especially if the tattoo needle just happened to "somehow" get dipped in polio vaccine.... :DErichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18275812152895151542noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9112925820320944611.post-2901756964252641702010-06-11T11:52:47.555-06:002010-06-11T11:52:47.555-06:00Michelle's solution would not be hard to imple...Michelle's solution would not be hard to implement. An "anti-vax fucking moron" tattoo on the forehead would do nicely.John the Scientisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03467337009577733553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9112925820320944611.post-15506542981555539672010-06-10T15:38:38.299-06:002010-06-10T15:38:38.299-06:00I am of the generation who lived through the polio...I am of the generation who lived through the polio out breaks…Had the mumps and the chicken pox and the measles…I am deaf in on ear due to the measles and because I had the chicken pox I run the risk of getting shingle…except I sprung for the vaccination against that plague….very expensive too by the way. I can tell you that as soon as the polio serum became available my Mom made sure all of us got it. At that time the gov’t picked up the check…it was all about public health and not cost…mom in northernhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04120181704524007556noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9112925820320944611.post-83145006727138068942010-06-10T15:02:45.027-06:002010-06-10T15:02:45.027-06:00My grandmother had polio as a child, and for her e...My grandmother had polio as a child, and for her entire life walked with a marked limp because one leg was smaller & shorter than the other. She had to buy 2 pairs of shoes in order to make a pair of shoes she could wear. They had to be heavy, sturdy shoes, she preferred various colors of classic saddle shoes. <br /><br />She was one of the lucky ones. <br /><br />I remember getting all my shots, mostly at our family doctor's office, but a couple through the school. Didn't start getting oral boosters until at least jr. high. Unfortunately, my bother & I had rip-roaring cases of both kinds of measles AND chicken pox well before the vaccines came out. We still have visible scars from then. <br /><br />On the other hand, neither of us ever had mumps. Our doctor called all his patients as soon as the mumps vaccine got to his office and we all trooped in to get shot. I think those did have oral boosters and we got dosed at the appropriate times. <br /><br />If I had children, they would have followed the same drill... shot or oral or whatever dose to protect them. <br /><br />I equate failure to protect your child from preventable things child abuse.WendyB_09https://www.blogger.com/profile/03788918629240949526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9112925820320944611.post-84913492496611520192010-06-10T14:03:40.824-06:002010-06-10T14:03:40.824-06:00I like Michelle's solution - no public exposur...I like Michelle's solution - no public exposure. Hard to enforce, to be sure, but I LIKE IT.Janiecehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14190655869710465713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9112925820320944611.post-70503654600377639372010-06-10T13:55:17.652-06:002010-06-10T13:55:17.652-06:00I feel like I'm jumping on the bandwagon here,...I feel like I'm jumping on the bandwagon here, but I think Eric answered your question the best in his first comment.<br /><br />Just as your right to swing your fist ends at my nose, so does your right to do as you like with your body end when those actions affect others.<br /><br />You can drink as much as you want, but you cannot drive after drinking because you place the life and health of others at risk.<br /><br />You don't wanna get vaccinated? Fine. But you don't get to enter public spaces--ever. No schools, no parks, no grocery stores.Random Michelle Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13817444379694818074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9112925820320944611.post-57011878766808463472010-06-10T13:11:52.185-06:002010-06-10T13:11:52.185-06:00Warner, I don't recall anyone in my family hav...Warner, I don't recall anyone in my family having those diseases, but me (and my own kids) were fully vaccinated. <br /><br />Quite frankly, it never occured to me <em>not</em> to vaccinate my kids. When the manufactured controversy that is the imaginary vaccine/autism link became prevelent, I did MORE research, and I feel even more strongly about it now.Janiecehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14190655869710465713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9112925820320944611.post-70252874015766700452010-06-10T13:05:05.328-06:002010-06-10T13:05:05.328-06:00My older brother had polio, I had many of the chil...My older brother had polio, I had many of the childhood diseases neuron doc mentions. Most, if not all of my classmates did. And the small pox vaccine of the time left a dime sized scar on my right arm that is still visible. <br /><br />You can bet mine got vaccinated.Warner (aka ntsc)https://www.blogger.com/profile/12924176333302007261noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9112925820320944611.post-6674342260519344872010-06-10T10:47:15.289-06:002010-06-10T10:47:15.289-06:00Americans are appallingly ignorant of history and ...<i><br />Americans are appallingly ignorant of history and science in general, would be my point, and vaccine-ignorance is in some ways merely yet-another-symptom of this sad fact. </i><br /><br />That.<br /><br />It doesn't shape my opinions on the antivaxxers, except perhaps to think them even stupider than I would otherwise, but my father had a mild case of polio as a child and is both crippled and subject to possibly-related long-term health effects.Phialahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05604909119508288912noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9112925820320944611.post-43138692640312222332010-06-10T10:45:41.100-06:002010-06-10T10:45:41.100-06:00Ignorant enough to take medical advice from a form...<em>Ignorant enough to take medical advice from a former nude model turned cable-TV hostess instead of a physician, I guess.</em><br /><br />Ba-ZINGA. Amen, brother.Janiecehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14190655869710465713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9112925820320944611.post-50932122707789449062010-06-10T10:42:10.680-06:002010-06-10T10:42:10.680-06:00I agree with you (again!) Janiece that anti-vaxxer...I agree with you (again!) Janiece that anti-vaxxers wouldn't exist if our generation had more experience with seeing victims of polio and other illnesses, or even things as simple as public pool closings, quarrantines and other similar measures that were still facts of life even a generation ago.<br /><br />But I also think the more fundamental proud historical ignorance that plagues Americans is also a factor. Knowing what polio looked like then and now is as simple as a <a href="http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&q=polio&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi" rel="nofollow">Google Image Search</a> for the word "polio" (and you may not want to click that link, though there's certainly a <i>moral</i> argument that every human being <i>should</i>; at any rate, I've warned you). You don't have to know a polio victim firsthand to be aware that it was historically a blight, and most <i>educated</i> people (including everyone here, I think) knows that polio was awful. True, it's more intimate and personal if you've met an older family member who was crippled by a mild exposure or have heard family stories of family members who were stricken or killed by the disease, and more personal still to have lived through an epidemic; but how uninformed do you have to be to not know of the disease's ravages and the miracle of near-eradication from history books, if nothing else?<br /><br />Ignorant enough to take medical advice from a former nude model turned cable-TV hostess instead of a physician, I guess.<br /><br />Americans are appallingly ignorant of history and science in general, would be my point, and vaccine-ignorance is in some ways merely yet-another-symptom of this sad fact.Erichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18275812152895151542noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9112925820320944611.post-56061878796567048232010-06-10T10:27:02.362-06:002010-06-10T10:27:02.362-06:00Neurondoc, I'm sorry to get you wrapped around...Neurondoc, I'm sorry to get you wrapped around the axle this fine Thursday. I, too, feel strongly about this, and I hadn't talked about it in a while. The recent disgrace of Andrew "I kill kids for money" Wakefield inspired me. <br /><br />The ultimate irony: Wakefield was probably vaccinated, and protected thereby. <br /><br />Go figure.Janiecehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14190655869710465713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9112925820320944611.post-80227668638555961812010-06-10T10:18:37.351-06:002010-06-10T10:18:37.351-06:00I can't help myself. I must comment.
Janiece ...I can't help myself. I must comment.<br /><br />Janiece -- dingdingding! I graduated medical school in the early 90's and I have never seen smallpox, diphtheria, mumps, tetanus, or acute polio. I have seen one case of acute maasles. As I have mentioned before, I have seen 2 cases of subacute sclerosing panencephalitis. I would prefer never to see another. I am not sure I would even recognize chicken pox at this point.<br /><br />This is not an issue of individual health; it is an issue of public health. VACCINES WORK! They do their job! But they only continue to work when people (adults and children) continue to get vaccinated. People who <i>choose</i> not to get themselves or their children vaccinated (as opposed to being unable to get vaccinated for medical reason) put many more people at risk than themselves.<br /><br />Foam, foam, foam...neurondochttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12155027993661209263noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9112925820320944611.post-92087683200620830412010-06-10T09:03:09.250-06:002010-06-10T09:03:09.250-06:00One of the things that really resonated with me wh...One of the things that really resonated with me when I was watching the Frontline special was the assertion by one of the vaccine defenders that one of the reasons the anti-vax folks are so vociferous (and ignorant) is that vaccines are the victims of their own success.<br /><br />People in my generation have never seen cases of polio, and smallpox, and diptheria. Instead of looking at the historical record and making a decision based on the evidence, they committing the logical fallacy of extrapolating their own personal experience to the larger world, completely ignoring the fact that the <em>reason</em> they've never seen smallpox, or polio, or diptheria is because <em>everyone in our generation was vaccinated.</em><br /><br />I'm not sure how you overcome that kind of willful ignorance, and it's completely unrelated to the artificial controversy regarding autism.Janiecehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14190655869710465713noreply@blogger.com