tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9112925820320944611.post5604474640222572385..comments2024-03-19T03:18:54.509-06:00Comments on Hot Chicks Dig Smart Men: Pardon Me While I HeaveJaniecehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06223994862015217811noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9112925820320944611.post-32286366447595517222009-12-10T19:58:37.726-07:002009-12-10T19:58:37.726-07:00Thanks, Nathan. I'll keep that in mind. The bu...Thanks, Nathan. I'll keep that in mind. The butcher that our local beef rancher uses also does kosher slaughtering two days a week, which is a good thing. I'm also concerned about how the animals are treated prior to slaughter, so this is another option to consider...Janiecehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14190655869710465713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9112925820320944611.post-87659889031862566612009-12-10T19:30:58.647-07:002009-12-10T19:30:58.647-07:00Janiece,
Try buying kosher meat and poultry. The...Janiece,<br /><br />Try buying kosher meat and poultry. The rules for what qualifies as kosher guarantee humane slaughtering and all animals are inspected for health before slaughtering (an animal with any disease or defect isn't kosher). Here's a place in your backyard:<br /><br />Auerbach's Kosher Foods (groceries and glatt kosher meat products under national hechsherim such as O-U and Star-K. Meat and poultry by the case.)<br />4810 Newport Street<br />Commerce City, CO 80022<br />(303) 289-4521Nathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00648438549121320566noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9112925820320944611.post-68692881089359138952009-12-10T19:08:40.792-07:002009-12-10T19:08:40.792-07:00I thought it was a well-known fact eating meat mad...I thought it was a well-known fact eating meat made Jesus cry, which is why I left it out:<br /><br /><i>And then Jesus sat amongst the disciples and belched, and reached for the Wet-Nap, and he turned to John, and to John he said:<br /><br />"Oh. Oh my Father, me on a crutch, those were some damn good ribs, John. Crucify me now, I am stuffed."<br /><br />And the tears did run down Jesus' cheeks, and the disciples marveled at this not, for verily the ribs were good.<br /><br />And Thomas brought before Jesus the ear of corn that was wrapped in aluminum foil and thrown on the fire, and Jesus said:<br /><br />"Oh, Father, I cannot eat another thing; but this I say unto you this day: if I could but have room for one more thing, I would eat, eat more of these ribs that John has barbecued for us this day."<br /><br />And the disciples burped amongst themselves, and wanted blueberry pie not until they had digested the ribs that had been barbecued in the pit of coals until the meat was almost tender to fall from the bone.</i><br /><br />I think that's from Luke. Might be Mark.<br /><br />:PErichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18275812152895151542noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9112925820320944611.post-14616392535650046652009-12-10T15:01:53.292-07:002009-12-10T15:01:53.292-07:00And throw in a reference to how eating meat makes ...<i>And throw in a reference to how eating meat makes Baby Jesus cry.</i><br /><br />As the resident quasi-vegan, I thought that was my job.Carol Elainehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11176510419973881931noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9112925820320944611.post-23613798234476850352009-12-10T14:14:17.560-07:002009-12-10T14:14:17.560-07:00How's that for a heavy-handed manifesto from a...<em>How's that for a heavy-handed manifesto from an asshole?</em><br /><br />Pretty poor, actually. Next time use more points that cannot be supported using logical argument, and with fewer caveats. And throw in a reference to how eating meat makes Baby Jesus cry.Janiecehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14190655869710465713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9112925820320944611.post-24288084493136073302009-12-10T12:46:11.205-07:002009-12-10T12:46:11.205-07:00I do have some limits.I do have <i>some</i> limits.The Mechanicky Galhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00301818656158916179noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9112925820320944611.post-64398315401636991942009-12-10T12:45:46.575-07:002009-12-10T12:45:46.575-07:00Just for the record, I will NOT be eating any monk...Just for the record, I will NOT be eating any monkey <i>brains</i>. Feet and hands remain fair game, however.The Mechanicky Galhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00301818656158916179noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9112925820320944611.post-86179957348341429442009-12-10T12:44:38.938-07:002009-12-10T12:44:38.938-07:00Mmmmm, monkey!Mmmmm, <i>monkey!</i>The Mechanicky Galhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00301818656158916179noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9112925820320944611.post-77718796090535843352009-12-10T12:00:43.628-07:002009-12-10T12:00:43.628-07:00Eric, I agree completely. I think the hygiene issu...Eric, I agree completely. I think the hygiene issue is raised because a lot of people realize that the ethical angle won't work for people who don;t give a crap. But it's similar to the thimerosol in vaccines issue. OMG! There's <i>mercury</i> in our vaccines. How many kids get sick as a result? As close to zero as makes no difference.<br /><br />You are right to be careful with 3a, though, for the same reason. Where is the evidence that those pesticides do harm? The data is emerging, and it's best to hold judgment. But the question becomes one of dose. Just because we can detect ppb levels doesn't mean they're important. If our organisms were so fragile as to get killed by ppb levels of pathogens, we'd not have evolved. Cumulative effects? Maaaaaybe. I'm not betting on it, though. It's not been the case with other pathogens.John the Scientisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03467337009577733553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9112925820320944611.post-21008747568827347312009-12-10T11:25:11.021-07:002009-12-10T11:25:11.021-07:00(Oh, one more note: it should probably be pointed ...(Oh, one more note: it should probably be pointed out that #3a, above, refers to some concerns that are controversial or still under review, i.e. hormone-mimickry by some pesticides. That may well prove to be an unfounded concern, though there appears to be cause for reasonable suspicion to investigate further.)Erichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18275812152895151542noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9112925820320944611.post-83662347914854158372009-12-10T11:22:43.001-07:002009-12-10T11:22:43.001-07:00So either I as an individual can process a lot of ...<i>So either I as an individual can process a lot of shit, or we as a species are much hardier than we think.</i><br /><br />Probably both, but a lot more of it's column B. We didn't knuckle-crawl out of the veldt and onto every continent except one (on which we've still managed to establish permanent camps) by being fragile creatures knocked out by every stomach bug. We did it by having the teeth, guts and brains to figure out how to turn nearly everything we can put our grubby paws on that isn't a rock into food.<br /><br />I think sanitation is by far the weakest grounds to base food decisions on--food handling, whether on the factory floor or in <i>your own</i> kitchen, is going to simultaneously be worse than you imagine and better than you'd feared. Some folks will harp on the sanitary aspects because of the squick factor, but honestly, if you really want to go there (you don't), I'd be willing to bet the most conscientious consumer of thoroughly-washed veggies is still eating bugshit by the <i>pound</i>. (You're welcome.)<br /><br />Personally, what I'd see as legitimate ethical diet concerns are:<br /><br />1) Ethical concerns over how food animals are treated;<br /><br />2) Ethical concerns over how humans who harvest or prepare food are treated;<br /><br />3a) Health concerns over the use of pesticides and/or fertilizers which may have carcinogenic or teratogenic effects in humans and/or animals or that alter development in humans and/or animals by mimicking hormones;<br /><br />3b) Environmental concerns relating to inadequate containment of farming activities (e.g. health effects of <a href="http://www.epa.gov/nrmrl/EDC/projects/edc_cafo.htm" rel="nofollow">swine lagoon runoff</a>); these concerns may overlap with 3a biochemistry issues or may raise sanitary issues (i.e. contamination of drinking water with tons of fecal matter);<br /><br />4) Legal issues raised by failure to control the spread of intellectual property into the environment (e.g. the Monsanto "Roundup Ready" problem of legal actions taken against farmers whose crops were inadvertently contaminated with Monsanto proprietary DNA).<br /><br />Note that some of these issues might be reason to give up certain foods, others might be a reason to only eat from certain suppliers.<br /><br />I realize that others may offer other reasons, but I don't personally think other dogs will hunt. ('Tho I do realize I may have missed something.) E.g. concerns about "Frankenfoods" are not legitimate if they're based on the irrational fear of consuming certain kinds of DNA, though a boycott of Monsanto because of their legal or business practices is another issue entirely.<br /><br />How's <i>that</i> for a heavy-handed manifesto from an asshole?Erichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18275812152895151542noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9112925820320944611.post-73613800146264693762009-12-10T10:33:05.422-07:002009-12-10T10:33:05.422-07:00I will attest to MG's proclivity to eating any...I will attest to MG's proclivity to eating any food item, on any continent. I try hard to be open minded in terms of trying new foods when I'm out of the country, but I draw the line at Monkey-on-a-Stick. Not so, MG.Janiecehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14190655869710465713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9112925820320944611.post-85803736547727010832009-12-10T10:11:12.212-07:002009-12-10T10:11:12.212-07:00Janiece, I'll admit that I have to be extra vi...Janiece, I'll admit that I have to be extra vigilant in my protein consumption, because if I'm not it's way too easy for me not get enough protein, which makes me feel dizzy after a while. Thank heaven there are enough alternate sources of protein available (especially in Los Angeles) that it's not as difficult for me as it might be for someone in certain parts of the South or Midwest. Another reason I'm not leaving L.A. anytime soon.<br /><br />Warner (aka ntsc), thank you for that link. It confirmed what I've long thought about Costco - it's a damned good company. I was also happy to read that Trader Joes is looking to have a third party do testing if needed, since TJ is probably my favorite grocery store.<br /><br />John and Janiece, what <i>FFN</i> opened my eyes to was not the toll of factory farming on animals - I was already aware of that. It was the toll of the system of factory farming on the workers, especially in the slaughterhouses, and how working in slaughterhouses went from being a good, well-paying and relatively safe job to a barely-above-minimum-wage, incredibly dangerous job done primarily by illegal immigrants bussed in especially for that purpose, because they're considered expendable. I wasn't fond of the movie based on the book, as I think a documentary would have been more appropriate, but the thing it got absolutely right were the conditions of the slaughterhouses.<br /><br />Aside from everything else in the book mentioned by Janiece, that alone is enough to make me think long and hard about blindly supporting a system that treats human beings as expendable. And yes, I rarely eat fast food.<br /><br />Janiece is right - it is <i>The Jungle</i> all over again, but on a much larger scale.Carol Elainehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06041453807217603422noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9112925820320944611.post-14420079421058884162009-12-10T09:56:47.978-07:002009-12-10T09:56:47.978-07:00As far as the ethics go, I'm not too sure wher...As far as the ethics go, I'm not too sure where I stand on that.The Mechanicky Galhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00301818656158916179noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9112925820320944611.post-39913490301152353972009-12-10T09:53:30.776-07:002009-12-10T09:53:30.776-07:00John, I can completely relate to the Bangkok story...John, I can completely relate to the Bangkok story. Tap water to take the aspirin for a Tiger beer hangover. <br />Whew! Did that clean me out! <br />But I do have to say, I am one of those people that eats from carts in the street. Wherever they are. Community steaming vat of broth with sticks of stuff simmering in Korea? I'm there!<br />Woks of rice / noodles on the side of the street in Indonesia? Tas-TEE! Dish of Don't-Ask-Just-Eat in China? MAGNIFICENT and oh SO tastee!<br />So either I as an individual can process a lot of shit, or we as a species are much hardier than we think.The Mechanicky Galhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00301818656158916179noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9112925820320944611.post-86570575584869883922009-12-10T08:00:44.905-07:002009-12-10T08:00:44.905-07:00John, Michelle has already made my point.
My eth...John, Michelle has already made my point. <br /><br />My ethical dilemmas surrounding meat products are primarily related to the well-being of the animals and the workers who raise, slaughter and pack them. I've been agonizing over this for quite some time - I was a vegetarian for a time, until I realized the lack of protein in my diet made me chronically tired. I've been thinking about it more since reading <em>The Omnivore's Dilemma</em> by Michael Pollan, which helped me to grow my position to the statement I made on 12/9 at 1:43 p.m.. Reading <em>Fast Food Nation</em> has helped to inform and round out my concerns, and added some additional information regarding food safety and the treatment of fast food workers to the mill. While I didn't mention it here, Schlosser also details the food safety issues inherent in food handling in restaurants (particularly fast food restaurants). <br /><br />Are you assuming that because I didn't explicitly call out the areas in which FFN used shaky assumptions, then that means I swallowed the book whole cloth and did not apply a discerning eye to any of the material? I thought you knew me better than that.<br /><br />In any event, I'm using the material in this book (like I used the material in <em>The Omnivore's Dilemma</em> and other sources) to determine the best course of ethical action for me. Since I've been struggling with these issues for quite some time, I hardly think the material in FFN will single-handedly change my life, but it did provide additional data.Janiecehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14190655869710465713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9112925820320944611.post-82013912286542473122009-12-10T07:39:23.924-07:002009-12-10T07:39:23.924-07:00"The retail giant Costco, which makes its own..."The retail giant Costco, which makes its own ground beef, has been one of the few retailers to insist on such testing by its grinding facility as an added consumer protection. " from<br /><br />http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/13/us/13ecoli.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=costco%20ground%20beef&st=cse<br /><br />Yes the only time I notice food poisoning is when it hits the news. I can't really give figures.<br /><br />However I both dry cure meat (preservation and consumption without cooking) to include pork, so I do follow figures on trichinosis. The last year reported there were about 12 in the US with most coming from wild game. <br /><br />I also can using a pressure canner (I also use hot water when appropriate); the figures for botulism poisoning, the last reported year, were like 6 with one fatality (I think infant mortality was excluded here).<br /><br />In both practices, from reading FDA and University output, one would think that if you make the slightest mistake you will die.<br /><br />Total food borne disease deaths is a fraction of drunken driving deaths. I doubt it is 1%, yet which gets the national air time. <br /><br />The difference in taste between properly raised animals and factory animals is incredible. Pork is almost as red as beef.Warner (aka ntsc)https://www.blogger.com/profile/12924176333302007261noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9112925820320944611.post-81275431074529684112009-12-10T06:16:35.014-07:002009-12-10T06:16:35.014-07:00Several things.
1) Food poisoning is far more com...Several things.<br /><br />1) Food poisoning is far more common than you'd think. Most people suffer from food poisoning and don't even know it, assuming they have a "stomach bug" of some sort. Thing is, the most common types of food poisoning aren't the ones that make the news, they're the ones that take three to ten days to develop, and they don't kill people or put people in the hospital, they just make people sick.<br /><br />Second, for me, the food poisoning was only a minor point in the story. What was far more horrifying was how people and animals are treated by these corporations, and how these corporate farms are destroying the environments where they are located.<br /><br />Far more time in the book was spent showing how the costs of fast food are much much higher than the "dollar value menu" price paid at the counter.<br /><br />To claim that the book is outdated because testing for food poisoning has changed is to completely miss the point.Random Michelle Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13817444379694818074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9112925820320944611.post-42654276624695414412009-12-10T05:47:59.469-07:002009-12-10T05:47:59.469-07:00Hah, I didn't see Eric's second post.
Da...Hah, I didn't see Eric's second post. <br /><br />Damn, Eric, we've got to stop agreeing so much. :DJohn the Scientisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03467337009577733553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9112925820320944611.post-1765556337485642512009-12-10T05:43:08.493-07:002009-12-10T05:43:08.493-07:00Let me offer something of a counterargument to the...Let me offer something of a counterargument to the health angle, along the lines of what Eric said, Janiece.<br /><br />When bad meat makes people sick, it makes the national news. Some of that's because of national distribution, but mostly it's because the events are so rare.<br /><br />Human beings evolved to digest a large number of pathogenic challenges. Eating shit is a normal part of our evolutionary heritage.<br /><br />The book over-sensationalizes the hygiene issue. So the question is, how often do people get sick from food-borne pathogens (as opposed to obesity / diabetes etc., which is the major problem with fast food)? <br /><br />Let me put it this way. Say a drug company marketed with this drug, oh, let's call it Relieve. And it was supposed to have less GI problems than Aleve or Motrin. But when you actually conducted the clinical trials, there were the same number of ulcers with Relieve. They played the song and dance that people got fewer tummy aches, but the incidence of the bad stuff was the same. You'd call horseshit on their marketing, right? The same thing works on the flip side with fast food safety. <br /><br />While I'm not particularly pleased with the hygiene in factory food operations, I do call horseshit on the hyperbole in <i>Fast Food Nation</i>, based on the evidence of disease.<br /><br />US Today (can you tell I'm traveling?) had a piece yesterday on how inspections of school lunches are not as stringent as fast food, and that the fast food industry tests for pathogens 10 fold frequently than the USDA does for school lunches (<a href="http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/12/09/health/main5950119.shtml" rel="nofollow">here's a related article</a>). The writer was all up in arms over this, but my first question was "where's the beef"? What's the evidence that kids get sick more often on a per-meal-consumed basis than fast food customers? I don't think the evidence is there. Kids eat fucking dirt for Pete's sake.<br /><br />The other problem with FFN is that it's out of date - I'm pretty sure at least some of those testing procedures mentioned in the news article came about after FFN was published. And as Eric said, the real problem with fast food hygiene is what happens in the kitchen, not the factory, and often the vegetables are more the culprit in food-borne illness because they're not cooked.<br /><br />Speaking of lettuce, the second sickest I've ever gotten from food was from lettuce I ate in the Far East, and I suspect the fertilizer was human waste. (The sickest was from drinking lukewarm tea made from tap water in Bangkok. What can I say? I was tired, jet lagged, thirsty and a fucking idiot.)John the Scientisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03467337009577733553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9112925820320944611.post-49961069813377794212009-12-09T23:05:54.623-07:002009-12-09T23:05:54.623-07:00Michelle, you're absolutely right about employ...Michelle, you're absolutely right about employee turnover. You normally get stable staffing at better restaurants. Several here in Atlanta have new servers & staff "shadow" the experienced crew to learn the ropes and actually introduce them to the guests when they greet you at your table. They'll also have new chef staff come out to your table if you compliment your meal to encourage them!<br /><br />I've also done event planning with some establishments; many catering managers have offices just off the kitchen. It's no small matter of pride that they're comfortable inviting potential clients for a peak behind the swinging door! If you're lucky you might even get a tour & meet the kitchen staff. Squeaky clean is what you want to see, and I try to go either before or after the lunch rush to see how they handle crunch time. <br /><br />One of the fast food exceptions is a KFC down the street that's had the same manager for a dozen years or so, he's so good he's used as a regional training store for their management program and his regular staff stays for years as well. You can see the whole kitchen from the counter and it's always so spotless you could eat off the floor. I'll tell them I'm taking my order home on the bus and they'll double wrap it to keep it hot. <br /><br />Hmph. Now I'll have to have KFC for dinner soon.WendyB_09https://www.blogger.com/profile/03788918629240949526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9112925820320944611.post-17532252863844151342009-12-09T20:45:04.529-07:002009-12-09T20:45:04.529-07:00I've never spent much time around food service...<em>I've never spent much time around food service. I'm learning, though.</em><br /><br />Trust me. You really don't want to. I did more than my time in food service, and spent as much of that time as possible in the kitchen. <br /><br />It's one of the reasons why (as I stated earlier) I try to eat at restaurants where the employees are treated well. How do you know something like that? Watch employee turnover. Do you hardly ever see the same waiter twice? Or have the waitresses be around for years and years? The front end staff will most likely reflect the back of the house staff. <br /><br />A high turnover rate probably mean disgruntled employees, and that's bad. Staff that sticks around for years means they probably offer health insurance and vacation, which means employees have a vested interest in keeping their jobs.<br /><br />Yeah, it's not foolproof, but it's a start.<br /><br />And Carol Elaine, I was thrilled to discover I could find local eggs. At the farmer's market, they don't say "free range" they say "pasture raised" and I have no problems with eggs when the chickens are treated well.<br /><br />Also, I've cleaned chicken coops and collected eggs before. It's why I can still eat poultry. ;)Random Michelle Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13817444379694818074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9112925820320944611.post-52861606511750708352009-12-09T17:02:36.601-07:002009-12-09T17:02:36.601-07:00CE, you're fine. I was hoping you'd weigh ...CE, you're fine. I was hoping you'd weigh in here, as I respect the fact that you're consistent in the application of your beliefs, and maintain them regardless of whether or not they're convenient.<br /><br />Wendy, I never knew much about food prep and the rules surrounding it - with the exception of a stint as a soda jerk and some time as a waitress as a teen, I've never spent much time around food service. I'm learning, though.Janiecehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14190655869710465713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9112925820320944611.post-24470901017172160982009-12-09T16:53:41.805-07:002009-12-09T16:53:41.805-07:00I'm really sorry for the rambling. I said it w...I'm really sorry for the rambling. I said it was hard to focus my thoughts!Carol Elainehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06041453807217603422noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9112925820320944611.post-12302948080693255612009-12-09T16:53:15.149-07:002009-12-09T16:53:15.149-07:00I spent 10 summers working as a supervisor for a n...I spent 10 summers working as a supervisor for a national food concession vendor at a local outdoor arena. Learned a whole lot more than I ever wanted to know about food prep, food storage, health issues and related inspections. The volunteers running the kitchens would get pissed because we constantly checked food status, frequently having to distroy a batch of something because it wasn't properly stored or cooked. They learned, we had no plans to get shut down or fail an inspection. <br /><br />I am much more careful these days with what I eat and where I eat it from. While I do still eat fast food, I only purchase from places I can see into the kitchen & prep area. Odd yes, but I know what should and shouldn't be there and can tell a lot about a place by how the cooks/prep team handle the food simply because I've been on the other side of the counter. <br /><br />I have been doing more local farmers & food when my limited budget allows. Have identified and buy from grocery chains that promote local produce. Also do a lot of label reading, especially meats. <br /><br />The simple fact, and a large part of the problem, is you no longer know your local butcher, baker, or farmer, so you don't always know where your groceries come from. And I sure miss having a garden of my own to grow things.WendyB_09https://www.blogger.com/profile/03788918629240949526noreply@blogger.com